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Voting anarchist dilemma

Latest post Thu, May 1 2008 10:43 AM by liberty student. 150 replies.
  • Thu, Mar 20 2008 11:50 AM

    Voting anarchist dilemma

     I've heard some anarcho capitalists say that they would never vote because voting is an endorsement for the system. By voting for the lesser of two evils you accepted the rule of the lesser. But isn't an anarchist still self interested? Can't he vote for the lesser merely because it betters his situation, but at the same time not wish to partake in the system in which he is enslaved? This post is in response to Steph and his view that Ron Paul was "pointless."

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  • Thu, Mar 20 2008 1:03 PM In reply to

    Re: Voting anarchist dilemma

    I'm kind of torn on this one myself.  I can sympathize with Molyneux' argument, but at the moment I'm leaning towards voting.  Molyneux thinks that government growth is inevitable, but I don't know if that's true.  I think if we had a president who got rid of the federal reserve, which would help stave off recession cycles and inflation, people would be less likely to think gov intervention is necessary.  So I think a libertarian candidate could be a big step forward.  Also, not voting doesn't really do much to help.  It puts more weight in the hands of people who do vote, and it's not like refusing to vote means you don't have to play by their rules so I just don't see the benefit.

    • Post Points: 5
  • Thu, Mar 20 2008 1:22 PM In reply to

    Re: Voting anarchist dilemma

    "    It is also contended that, in democratic governments, the act of voting makes the government and all its works and powers truly “voluntary.” Again, there are many fallacies with this popular argument. In the first place, even if the majority of the public specifically endorsed each and every particular act of the government, this would simply be majority tyranny rather than a voluntary act undergone by every person in the country. Murder is murder, theft is theft, whether undertaken by one man against another, or by a group, or even by the majority of people within a given territorial area. The fact that a majority might support or condone an act of theft does not diminish the criminal essence of the act or its grave injustice. Otherwise, we would have to say, for example, that any Jews murdered by the democratically elected Nazi government were not murdered, but only “voluntarily committed suicide”—surely, the grotesque but logical implication of the “democracy as voluntary” doctrine. Secondly, in a republic as contrasted to a direct democracy, people vote not for specific measures but for “representatives” in a package deal; the representatives then wreak their will for a fixed length of time. In no legal sense, of course, are they truly “representatives” since, in a free society, the principal hires his agent or representative individually and can fire him at will. As the great anarchist political theorist and constitutional lawyer, Lysander Spooner, wrote:

    they [the elected government officials] are neither our servants, agents, attorneys, nor representatives . . . [for] we do not make ourselves responsible for their acts. If a man is my servant, agent, or attorney, I necessarily make myself responsible for all his acts done within the limits of the power I have intrusted to him. If I have intrusted him, as my agent, with either absolute power, or any power at all, over the persons or properties of other men than myself, I thereby necessarily make myself responsible to those other persons for any injuries he may do them, so long as he acts within the limits of the power I have granted him. But no individual who may be injured in his person or property, by acts of Congress, can come to the individual electors, and hold them responsible for these acts of their so-called agents or representatives. This fact proves that these pretended agents of the people, of everybody, are really the agents of nobody.3

         Furthermore, even on its own terms, voting can hardly establish “majority” rule, much less of voluntary endorsement of government. In the United States, for example, less than 40 percent of eligible voters bother to vote at all; of these, 21 percent may vote for one candidate and 19 percent for another. 21 percent scarcely establishes even majority rule, much less the voluntary consent of all. (In one sense, and quite apart from democracy or voting, the “majority” always supports any existing government; this will be treated below.) And finally how is it that taxes are levied on one and all, regardless of whether they voted or not, or, more particularly, whether they voted for the winning candidate? How can either nonvoting or voting for the loser indicate any sort of endorsement of the actions of the elected government?

         Neither does voting establish any sort of voluntary consent even by the voters themselves to the government. As Spooner trenchantly pointed out:

    In truth, in the case of individuals their actual voting is not to be taken as proof of consent. . . . On the contrary, it is to be considered that, without his consent having even been asked a man finds himself environed by a government that he cannot resist; a government that forces him to pay money renders service, and foregoes the exercise of many of his natural rights, under peril of weighty punishments. He sees, too, that other men practice this tyranny over him by the use of the ballot. He sees further, that, if he will but use the ballot himself, he has some chance of relieving himself from this tyranny of others, by subjecting them to his own. In short, he finds himself, without his consent, so situated that, if he uses the ballot, he may become a master, if he does not use it, he must become a slave. And he has no other alternative than these two. In self-defense, he attempts the former. His case is analogous to that of a man who has been forced into battle, where he must either kill others, or be killed himself. Because, to save his own life in battle, a man attempts to take the lives of his opponents, it is not to be inferred that the battle is one of his own choosing. Neither in contests with the ballot—which is a mere substitute for a bullet—because, as his only chance of self-preservation, a man uses a ballot, is it to be inferred that the contest is one into which he voluntarily entered; that he voluntarily set up all his own natural rights, as a stake against those of others, to be lost or won by the mere power of numbers. . . .

         Doubtless the most miserable of men, under the most oppressive government in the world, if allowed the ballot would use it, if they could see any chance of meliorating their condition. But it would not, therefore, be a legitimate inference that the government itself, that crushes them, was one which they had voluntarily set up, or even consented."

    Murray Rothbard. The Ethics of Liberty http://www.mises.org/rothbard/ethics/twentytwo.asp

     

    "    Many anarchist libertarians claim it immoral to vote or to engage in political action–the argument being that by participating in this way in State activity, the libertarian places his moral imprimatur upon the State apparatus itself. But a moral decision must be a free decision, and the State has placed individuals in society in an unfree environment, in a general matrix of coercion. The State—unfortunately—exists, and people must necessarily begin with this matrix to try to remedy their condition. As Lysander Spooner pointed out, in an environment of State coercion, voting does not imply voluntary consent.3 Indeed, if the State allows us a periodic choice of rulers, limited though that choice may be, it surely cannot be considered immoral to make use of that limited choice to try to reduce or get rid of State power.4"

    Murray Rothbard.  The Ethics of Liberty http://www.mises.org/rothbard/ethics/twentyfour.asp

    • Post Points: 20
  • Thu, Mar 20 2008 2:15 PM In reply to

    Re: Voting anarchist dilemma

    Thanks that exactly answered it. And straight from rothbard himself haha. Morality is detached from voting in a coercive system.

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  • Thu, Mar 20 2008 2:40 PM In reply to

    • RiflesReady
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    Re: Voting anarchist dilemma

    In some states, like California, I suppose there's nothing wrong with voting. At least there, you have a whole swath of candidates for president or governor or congressman. In such a state you may actually find a candidate that advocates positions which you find proper, just, right, or whatever. But out here in Indian Territory, there's no such thing. We have the most restrictive ballot access laws in the nation. Third parties have no substantial chance of even getting on the ballot. Therefore, here, we are stuck with the two headed tyrant (Democrats and Republicans.) Their views are not mine. I am becoming more and more radical, they are becoming more and more statist. I will not endorse any candidate who shares next to nothing of my own views.

    Yet I will vote. However, it should be noted, that in the spirit of Caligula, I will write in "my horse."

    Now, was Ron Paul pointless? In the scheme of political power in this cycle, absolutely. He lost, and lost big. I feel no regret about donating money to his campaign; it was money that would otherwise have been spent on any one of my many vices. And yet, he is of tremendous importance. Before Ron Paul (thanks, Sean Hannity,) I was an avid Bush supporter, Republican to the nth -- though socially liberal. Now, six months later, I'm wearing the Murray Rothbard "Enemy of the State" shirt, reading The Road to Serfdom and advocating the counter-economics of SEKIII. If Ron Paul only convinced a thousand people to forsake a tyrannical state, then he did a good thing.

    To wax philosophical, if I -- a high scool dropout with speech problems -- can convince just a handful of people that a truly free market is the way to improve the lives of everyone, then I will be happy. 

     

    "The difference between death and taxes is death doesn’t get worse every time Congress meets." Will Rogers
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  • Thu, Mar 20 2008 4:00 PM In reply to

    • JAlanKatz
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    Re: Voting anarchist dilemma

    It so happens that we live in a society where vote totals matter.  If Ron Paul had gotten 0.1% of the vote, he would have gotten less attention from the average person.  When he beat Rudy and placed ahead of several others, people in the street started paying attention to what he was saying.  To me, this is a justification for voting for him - a vote for Ron was a method of putting libertarian ideas out there in the public forum. 

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  • Thu, Mar 20 2008 4:14 PM In reply to

    Re: Voting anarchist dilemma

    The Spooner quote doesn't deal with the actual question at hand, or rather, it does not counter the actual arguments put foreward by anti-voting libertarians. The question at hand isn't about the morality of voting. It's about wether or not it works as strategy in any meaningful or long-term sense. In other threads, I've already made arguments as to why it is not sensible as strategy until I was blue in the face. I never claimed that voting means that you implicitly consent to the state, so the Spooner quote is irrelevant. That's really a straw man, not what most anti-voting libertarians have argued. What I do claim is that voting, nonetheless, functions as a sanction of the state regaurdless of consent, specifically that the voting process itself is used as ideological justification for whatever transpires afterwards. And what I do claim is that voting, regaurdless of consent, functions to either reinforce or strengthen the institutional framework of democracy and the state.

    Furthermore, if Spooner's argument with respect to voting is viewed in full, he in fact makes a wonderful practical case against voting, because he rather clearly demonstrates its lack of practicality. So I find it rather amusing if not downright ironic that people quote Spooner as an arguement in favor of voting, when the man clearly was argueing against it. If anything, the Spoonerian arguments quoted above demonstrate that voting does not work. For voting only presents an illusion of control over matters. From the standpoint of the individual, vote totals really do not matter. The institutional framework remains. If the ultimate purpose is to get rid of the institutional framework itself, voting will not get you anywhere. However, if one's goal is to possibly have short-term gains for yourself while working with the system and still keeping it in place, vote away. Just don't fool yourself into thinking that it makes any sense at all as a long-term strategy for doing away with that system.

    Unfortunately most anarcho-capitalists are still functioning as classical liberals strategically and in terms of their mindset, and even more unfortunately Rothbard became less radical as he aged, falling quite nicely into the pattern of his own diagnosis with respect to what happened to people like Herbert Spencer in the 19th century (I.E. "conservafication").

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  • Thu, Mar 20 2008 4:37 PM In reply to

    Re: Voting anarchist dilemma

    Let me try to explain this in terms of institutional analysis and checks and balances. When working within the framework of a single institution, you cannot really have real checks and balances, even if you break that single institution up into different sections while still having these sections within the same institution. This is because real checks and balances requires external competition, that is, the existance of independant or separate institutions. So long as it's all within one institution, it is just a vein attempt to simulate competition. You can't break up a monopoly by creating more bereaucracies within it, correct? You break it up through competition from other institutions. The political process in a democracy is fake competition because it is all within the framework of one monopolistic institution. At best, one is only changing which bereaucracy within the monopoly has ultimate control over the monopoly. If one truly wants to outcompete the monopoly, one must exit its framework and work within the framework of other institutions outside of it.

    For all the talk by libertarians of the efficiency and greatness of competition, I have to wonder why so many libertarians don't apply this logic to the state itself. If competition is the most efficient means, if the only true checks and balances is market competition, then outcompete the state for god's sakes! "Absorption of government by the economic organism" is the goal, quite literally.

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  • Thu, Mar 20 2008 5:08 PM In reply to

    Re: Voting anarchist dilemma

     Even though I believe that voting can be useful upon I agree with Brainpolice this should remain a purely strategic discussion; not moral. It is clear that voting does not imply consent. However, contrary to Brainpolice, I have come across many anarchists will argue that voting= consent till they're blue in the face- Mr Francois Trembley comes to mind.

    Every time drug enforcers have a huge success it is actually like taking drugs: it feels good at the time but produces more problems in the future.
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  • Thu, Mar 20 2008 5:19 PM In reply to

    Re: Voting anarchist dilemma

    Physiocrat:

     Even though I believe that voting can be useful upon I agree with Brainpolice this should remain a purely strategic discussion; not moral. It is clear that voting does not imply consent. However, contrary to Brainpolice, I have come across many anarchists will argue that voting= consent till they're blue in the face- Mr Francois Trembley comes to mind.

    Has Tremblay really argued that? I wasn't aware of that. One would think that the notion of "implicit consent" is a red flag to any anarchist, a self-contradictary or illogical notion used in the attempt to establish legitimacy. I have a personal dislike of Tremblay anyways, at least in terms of the attitude I've seen him display the few times I chatted in a room with him on Skype.

    But as far as Molyneux goes, I don't recall Molyneux ever argueing that voting implies consent. From what I've gathered, his argument against voting is a strategic and practical one. I could have misread him though, but I've been watching his videos for a while and I've listened to many of his podcasts and I don't think he has made a clear moral argument against voting.

    • Post Points: 35
  • Thu, Mar 20 2008 8:26 PM In reply to

    Re: Voting anarchist dilemma

    Brainpolice:

    Has Tremblay really argued that? I wasn't aware of that. One would think that the notion of "implicit consent" is a red flag to any anarchist, a self-contradictary or illogical notion used in the attempt to establish legitimacy. I have a personal dislike of Tremblay anyways, at least in terms of the attitude I've seen him display the few times I chatted in a room with him on Skype.

    But as far as Molyneux goes, I don't recall Molyneux ever argueing that voting implies consent. From what I've gathered, his argument against voting is a strategic and practical one. I could have misread him though, but I've been watching his videos for a while and I've listened to many of his podcasts and I don't think he has made a clear moral argument against voting.

     

    Re Molyneux I have not listened to any of his stuff so can't comment. Tremblay argued that voting was pretty much immoal when I argued about it on the An-Cap group on Facebook. For a taster of his views see this article of his from Strike the Root.

    Every time drug enforcers have a huge success it is actually like taking drugs: it feels good at the time but produces more problems in the future.
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  • Thu, Mar 20 2008 10:24 PM In reply to

    Re: Voting anarchist dilemma

     So if I understand you correctly Brainpolice, voting is a poor strategy because it allows the state to shroud itself in a thin layer of legitimacy and also it would be impossible to vote for the suicide of the institution allowing you to vote? I guess the core of what I was getting at was the argument steph was making about the pointlessness of Ron Paul as president, not necessarily his campaign. I just thought that Steph was ignoring the fact that Ron Paul as president would have been a short term gain for us, as it would save american lives and tax dollars.

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  • Thu, Mar 20 2008 11:06 PM In reply to

    Re: Voting anarchist dilemma

    twistedbydsign99:

     So if I understand you correctly Brainpolice, voting is a poor strategy because it allows the state to shroud itself in a thin layer of legitimacy and also it would be impossible to vote for the suicide of the institution allowing you to vote? I guess the core of what I was getting at was the argument steph was making about the pointlessness of Ron Paul as president, not necessarily his campaign. I just thought that Steph was ignoring the fact that Ron Paul as president would have been a short term gain for us, as it would save american lives and tax dollars.

    No doubt, a Ron Paul presidency would have potentially yielded some short-term gains. But then that begs the question of short-term vs. long-term strategy. One could obtain all the short-term gains in the world and the state could just grow back to where it was before and the machine stays intact in general. I'm willing to do without the short-term gains while persueing a long-term strategy. I also think it's important to consider the institutional framework that Ron Paul would have to be working within, that it involves vested interests and an institutional setup which would make it very hard for him to get very much done. He could concievably veto just about everything, but then that could just be overturned by another vote. He could concievably cause some stagnation or friction within the institution, but I don't see how it would do anything towards reaching the ultimate goal of eliminating the institution.

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  • Thu, Mar 20 2008 11:25 PM In reply to

    • macsnafu
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    Re: Voting anarchist dilemma

    Brainpolice:

    Has Tremblay really argued that? I wasn't aware of that. One would think that the notion of "implicit consent" is a red flag to any anarchist, a self-contradictary or illogical notion used in the attempt to establish legitimacy. I have a personal dislike of Tremblay anyways, at least in terms of the attitude I've seen him display the few times I chatted in a room with him on Skype.

    I've run into others who claim that voting implies legitimacy or consent.  I don't see it, although I do see the unlikelihood of making any significant changes by voting.

     

     

     

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  • Sat, Mar 22 2008 5:04 AM In reply to

    • Bank Run
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    Re: Blueface

     BP: Hi, and your reasons for not playing with naughty kids makes sense.

    Me, I vote. I encourage others not to. Say I, if you believe in the bipartisan falacy of voting(which is that if you don't vote for a major party than you are throwing a vote away), than truly by letting others tell you what you should do is the vote lost to tyranny. I vote because when my son ages to eighteen, I will likely be gettin' arrested. I will pull stunts. "Write-in, or Subject" signs, tend to rile up folks at the booth. I wish I could bonfire monopoly money in front of the news station, I can't let my son down so I must wait. Boy this tellin' folks about economic harmonies, is makin' me whatch my back more, and then again, so is life. So I vote because there isn't much I can do to rationally effect change in a responsable manner. I wish my yappin' wasn't so nerve rackin'. Society is in decay, if we could do something to win minds, I think a democratic-minarchy has a good potential, to practise negative/natural/common law. I too like the agoric deal, and want to find out how I can help, just tryin' to do what I can. I'm rappin bout monkey-wrenching at the park to children, and they seem to really get into nihilism, is that wrong of me? You'd be suprised how many rule lovers go around lovin' rules and even makin' them up as they go. Bring back the soapboxes!

     

    I can still try to be a good producer and utility,  I'm not goin' to let the Bend-Sinisters drive me down.

     

    Individualism Rocks

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  • Sat, Mar 22 2008 5:10 AM In reply to

    Re: Blueface